Although it was not the intention of the lag time between reporting date and first practice, there is a four-day window for the team's top negotiator, Paraag Marathe, to wrap up contract negotiations with the rookie class.
Word is that the 49ers and running back Glen Coffee, the team's third-round pick, are nearing the completion of their contract. He is expected to report to camp with most of his rookie classmates. But that brings us to the big question . . .
Question: Do you think Michael Crabtree is going to hold out or you think he'll sign before the start of training camp? (Andrew W.)
Answer: There is still a week before the practices begin, so it's difficult to predict. Up until now, I thought the sides would be able to hammer out a contract to get Crabtree into training camp without too much difficulty.
However, there are indications that it will be a challenge for the 49ers to get Crabtree signed before the start of training camp. Again, there is still a lot of time to get something accomplished - and only two first-round picks have signed deals -- but the 49ers and Crabtree are currently far apart in their negotiations.
If history tells us anything it's that Crabtree's agent, Eugene Parker, does not mind engaging in holdout tactics. (Technically, an unsigned rookie is not a "holdout" because no contract has been agreed upon. I'll try my best to refrain from calling it a holdout. Rather, it's a contract stalemate.)
At least four of Parker's clients had contract issues last season. Bills tackle Jason Peters skipped 43 days and missed the season opener. Rams running back Steven Jackson held out for 27 days before signing a new contract. Bears return man Devin Hester did not report for the first two days of camp before signing a new deal. And Cardinals rookie cornerback Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie missed two practices before signing his contract.
Yes, the 49ers have been successful in getting their draft picks signed on time in recent years. But the agents deserve some credit, too.
The 49ers - and every team in the NFL - believe that a player's rookie contract is essentially predetermined by where he was selected in the draft. As the No. 10 overall pick, Crabtree should receive less than the No. 9 pick and a little more than No. 11.
I don't believe the 49ers would buy the suggestion that Crabtree deserves more money because a lot of outsiders thought he should have been selected sooner in the draft and he was generally regarded as a better prospect than receiver Darrius Heyward-Bey, whom the Raiders selected with the seventh pick.
Pro Football Talk reports that the Bills, who open camp today, and the No. 11 pick, Aaron Maybin, might have difficulty reaching a timely deal. Part of the problem, according to the report, is that the No. 10 pick is looking to break the bank, as Parker is looking for a blockbuster deal for Crabtree. The theory is that Crabtree should have been a top-five selection.
If Parker, indeed, demands that kind of contract it could be a very long stalemate - and Crabtree will suffer on and off the field because of it.
After all, Crabtree underwent surgery in March to repair a stress fracture in his left foot. He did not step on the practice field during the offseason, and he is already far behind all the other wide receivers on the team.
Crabtree hired Parker to be his agent. That's a key sentence. Parker works for Crabtree, so the agent is ultimately going to do what his client orders him to do. So if Crabtree truly wants to be on the practice field for the first day of training camp, he will be there.
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I understand the whole who works for who concept, but these young guys get an agent barking in their ear and they start to think they can walk on water. I am disappointed that Crabtree decided to go with an agent that is "difficult" to work with, I would like to see him get to camp and so he was a top 5 pick on the field.
It might be just me, but it seems like agents are always out to squeeze as much money as they can out of teams. I guess that's what their job is to an extent but just as important is making sure their player gets onto the field as soon as possible to start the huge learning curve of the NFL.
And it wouldn't at all surprise me if a lot of players defer to agents when contract talks start figuring they have years of experience doing this and know what the best way to go about it is.
The NFL seriously needs a rookie salary cap. It would benefit both parties, and not just economically.
Hate to sound negative, but Crabtree's family sort of pushed Michael into the 2009 NFL draft so you better believe that agent is going to spark a holdout for big bucks (guaranteed bucks), so that Michael's daddy doesn't have to drive a bread truck ever again!
so much for playing for the love of the game. he did grow up a cowboy fan tho
Wait 'till the first practice. Then we'll know more.
Man,
This can't go on beyond the 1st day of TC. The kid has missed too much work as it is. I hope that Crabtree has the desire & urgency to get this thing done.
Negotiation can be a hard business. Each side uses the levers that are available. Crabtree's agent, Parker, has developed a reputation as a tough negotiator who is not afraid to hold out his clients. You better believe that this helps him get new clients and get good deals. But in the end, everyone wins only when a deal comes together. I expect Parker will take it to the last minute, or maybe a little beyond, and then they'll agree and all come out smiling.
I think what Crabtree does here will go a long way to reveal what is on the inside of this young man. If he allows his agent to jack around causing him to miss one day of TC then I think its safe to assume he has some maturing to do. On the other hand if tells the agent look I absolutely will not miss any part of TC then I think he is mature in his realization that hey I'm coming off an injury, I have to prove myself and I'm already behind the competition for a starting job in a position that is top heavy.
Out of curiosity, how often (if ever) do agents who try to play hardball with teams get told by their clients to cut the crap and get them on the field by the time training camp starts?
With potentially the deepest receiving core we've had this century, it is in Crabtree's best interest to get into camp early if he plans on contributing this year.
Furthermore,no player should ever ever ever be allowed to negotiate a contract based on where "he thinks he should have went"....lol Your drafted where your drafted thats what it is.
Matt, technically could we trade an unsiged draft pick for someone elses unsiged draft pick if we wanted? I think of Rivers and Manning.
Let him ride the bench for the whole year then. Times like this I actually like Al Davis. Should have been a top 5? BS! You mean all the top teams passed on him because they were stupid? I say let him ride the bench.
I think that we will learn a little bit more about Crabtree. We'll see if the prima donna tag is accurate after all if holds out for excessive $ (to where he was picked).
You make a good point in saying no player should ever be allowed to negotiate a contract based on where "he thinks he should have went"; if that were allowed, a lot of players would be trying to negotiate contracts as if they were drafted with the first pick overall.
I can never undertand this process. You "hold out" so you can get more money for a job that you haven't started yet. Players want more money based on, well, nothing. If you don't live up to the money you held out for and demanded, shouldn't the team get that money back? And the longer you hold out, the more you're performance is likely to suffer. Seems counter productive to me.
Hi Matt, I don't think the Crabtree holdout will cause a major problem. This is a run first team and the passing game will evolve later. I think Crabtree is a special talent and once he and the QB tune in watchout. You can't fault the guy for wanting more. It's such a tough game and not too many guys reach the big second contract.
This is the bargaining system the NFL & NFL Players Association agreed upon. Crabtree has every right to make as much money as he can. The NFL Teams are in this for a profit. They will cut you in a second if they think you are not a profitable investment.
Why make him out to be the bad guy in this? Get as much money as you can Crabtree! I don't see the Niners refunding any money for the crap they put on the field for the last six years!
Matt,
This year we have a number of wide receivers who will benefit greatly if Crabtree holds out. Morgan, Hill, Jones, and Ziegler are all primed to make a run at an increased role in the offense. I think it very unwise for him to pursue this approach. Outside of some fan discontent, all the important cards are with management. And the Niners can survive a(even lengthy) holdout.
The 9ers are dealing from a position of strength due to the level of talent at the WR position so I can't see them caving to an unreasonable contract demand. Hopefully, the kid doesn't start off his career on the wrong foot but a holdout won't be the worst thing in the world. Crabtree's foot will have more time to heal and he will be given a little latitude by the team (and fans) with his on-field production in his rookie year.
I"m hoping he sees what the 9ers have done with some of the younger players. If you prove your mettle, they'll reward you with a nice extension rather early in your rookie contract.
Firstly, Florio of profootballtalk is a proven liar that blogs stuff to create a reaction which generates page hits & $'s. He's busily building up Crabtree to be the next TO with some help from our very own Maiocco. Good for his business. Who cares if some kid fresh out of college gets a bad rep in the process? I'd guess the chance of this story being accurate at less than 5%.
Secondly, Crabtree's place on the final roster is guaranteed. If he chooses to use that leverage to get a bigger signing bonus, that's his business. The idea that posters on this blog would take minimum wage for the privilege of playing in the NFL is totally bogus. We'd all be demanding the biggest bucks we could. So Crabtree gets to camp late. BFD.
Hey Guys! There's nothing strange or different about the Crabtree situation. It happens EVERY YEAR to NFL teams. Now maybe it will happen to the 49ers this year. But maybe it won't.
Crabtree and his agent have to have in the back of their minds the severity of the injury to his foot (especially because of the position he plays) and it can lead to a constant disruption over years. One step, maybe even his first time running a pattern could sideline him for a long time his first season. So of course Crabtree and his agent want the most guaranteed money up front in case the worst happens and a future that is well paid in case all works out.
So come on guys. The NFL is a business for the ownership AND the player. Ra, Ra is for high school and college. Despite what we may think, these players worked hard to get where they are, and they expect the most they can get. They're no different then we are when it comes to our jobs.
Would you work for beans knowing your coworkers, who came to the your employer at the same time as you, are making the big bucks. NOT ME! Especially if I was the only one recruited by the owner to do the job and they weren't. But that's me.
Crabtree is the real deal. He knows how to go and get a ball and that is far more important than speed. He's not TO he's more like Rice, whose speed was only apparent when being pursued to the end zone. Rice was also less than gracious as a rookie and grew into his greatness. The best motivator for guys like this is the fear that they won't get a chance to play. Lack of practice time and a prima donna posture will not play well with MS or Raye. Jones and Morgan are already ahead of him and showing well. Bruce is a given and Hill, Ziegler and Battle all want jobs.
Get in camp Crabtree or you will get a Dre Bly kind of reminder of just why you were left until the 10th pick
Matt - Why do you think that Crabree's agent does not think the slotting system does not apply to Crabtree? Players all the time drop in the draft and I do not recall them getting the money of the higher slot.
Good post, Terry. Look, if Crabtree gets hurt in a year or two and can't produce, he gets cut. No guaranteed contacts in the NFL, so this is how the process plays out. Not that I'm rooting for either side to get the better of the other, I'd like to see him get compensated fairly, come to camp on time, produce on the field, and make the Niners better. Everyone wins. But, I will say that the Niners seem to be in a better bargaining position. With their depth at WR coupled with the fact that Crabtree hasn't been able to show anything this offseason, he and his agent aren't really in the position to be demanding top 5 money... Hopefully both sides will be smart and get something done, because a lengthy, uh, contract impasse would pretty much guarantee a wasted rookie season for Michael.
The 49ers should split the difference between last year's number 10 pick Jerod Mayo's contract and the outrageous one signed by the last top-10 receiver, Calvin Johnson.
Have the guaranteed money in the Mayo region, around $15 million over six years...but make the total, including performance incentives, closer to the $60+ million possible in Calvin Johnson's contract.
This will relatively insure the 49ers against injury and the chance Crabtree doesn't work out as a top flight NFL receiver while giving him plenty of incentive to perform and safeguarding against a future Boldinesque holdout if he becomes the next Jerry Rice by paying him according to his performance.
I'm guessing Crabtree is a confident guy and will assume he can reach all the incentives and make a ton of money. We all hope he does. The 49ers will be insured in case he doesn't.
Alex Mack (#21, $8.9m g'teed) & Ziggy Hood (#32, $6.1m g'teed) are signed. joining Matt Stafford (#1, $41.7m g'teed) & Mark Sanchez (#5th, $28m).
Alan Burge of Houston Texans Examiner has just plotted a graph chart http://image.examiner.com/images/blog/wysiwyg/image/draft_money(1).jpg which, together with last year's R1 contracts, should be enough for clubs & agents to negotiate out of. I expect to see plenty of finalized deals in the upcoming days.
Full article: http://www.examiner.com/x-778-Houston-Texans-Examiner~y2009m7d25-Mack-and-Hood-signings-help-bound-first-round-guaranteed-money
Michael Crabtree is probably going to be a very good, or better NFL player,But the 49ers don't necessarily need Crabtree. They had to take him when he fell to their draft spot. They had more pressing needs on draft day than WR, and still do. Maybe they could turn his "perceived" value into a big time trade or another high #1 next year, or a lower #1 And a #3 or......?
The 49ers are in a position of strength as long as they don't panic about signing this guy to please the fans and media.. There's a very long, and hazardous road between being a hot #1 pick and a star in the NFL. Hopefully, they'll sign him and both sides will be happy, but this is not a case where we're talking about a player that we MUST have.
And now Florio the liar has written another longer nastier piece on Crabtree's "looming holdout" to stir up the fans. He's now claiming Crabtree's diva behavior caused his draft day slide. Florio's excuse? This article from Maiocco that provides validation that Florio's stories are true!
What a loathsome person Florio is. You have to wonder why his sponsors stick with him and for how long. Gutter journalism at its worst.
More ammunition for the Rookie Salary Cap argument.
Play some Pro NFL Football and prove your worth for the second contract. Potental injuroes can't be a factor in the negotiations, the same insurances a Team looks to for protection can also be an option for the player.
Smart money says think Lloyds of London or any other firm offering similar options.
I'm not sure why you're calling Florio a liar. Do you have some information that leads you to believe he's lieing about sources telling him of Crabs impending holdout? He may very well be a liar, I don't know, but you seem certain of it. Are you aware his entire business is reporting on rumors which of course makes him a rumor monger but not necessarily a liar. I do know for a fact that Florio is VERY well connected in the NFL among the teams, plaers, and agents. His information is used by many sports writers throughout the country. I would even dare to say he's a trusted source.
Crabtree's agent, Eugene Parker, might not understand how counterproductive his strategy is.
The entire reason Crabtree fell to the 49ers is because his foot was seriously injured and he was thought to be a diva.
Putting forth the proposition that Crabtree deserves the kind of contract Calvin Johnson got from the Lions plays into the diva card. The fact that he'd miss training camp could be easily spun as Crabtree's foot not being ready for action.
Furthermore, the more practice Crabtree misses the less he's going to play this year, considering the depth at wide receiver they've got. Why would you pay a third or fourth wideout more than all the guys above him?
Again, I'd offer him the guaranteed money for the 10 slot, paired with the potential performance incentives that could pay him whatever he earns.
Good idea. Earn your #1 payout baby
Football is the dumbest sport when it comes to this stuff. I cant say i know enough about the history (although im curious enough to learn) of when this started happening to comment on that but it seems football is the only sport that pays ROOKIES BLOCKBUSTER deals for potential. You take a guy who as never played a down in the NFL and he is now one of the highest paid players in the league. I would guess if we used a QB for example (idk what the lions are paying) but now a rookie QB who has never thrown an NFL pass and we all know the stats on how many Rook QBs (first rounders) end up being busts or never make it.... (we know ALLL TOO WELL) and the guy is making more than probably 75% of established starters. I think they should go to a baseball system where u dont pay the guy crap until his 3rd year!! Ryan Howard won the MVP in his 2nd season n was making like 900k a year in a sport where ppls pay is outragous. Point being give these kids a nice little signing bonus and then go earn your contract on the field so u dont end up shelling out 54 million to a guy with a career 50 qb rating!!
"and the guy is making more than probably 75% of established starters."
Stafford was given the most guaranteed money of any player in the history of the league. At $41.75 million guaranteed, it just topped Haynesworth's $41 million guaranteed. It is absolutely, 100% insane. IMHO, the NBA has the best system for rookie contracts.
Personally, I'm all for base salaries (signing bonuses included) having a maximum limit, with each year accrued in the NFL raising that amount a certain percent, so that, in base salary, no rookie who has never played a down could ever earn more than, say, a five year veteran in base pay.
To balance this out and to reward players who work hard, all contracts would be incentive-based, with more bonuses being paid for achievements; however, to prevent agents and players from exploiting this loophole to pad a player's contract with easily-achieved high-paying bonuses, each type of incentive would have a maximum bonus allowed (for example, maximum of $100K per sack, with an extra bonus for reaching a certain number of sacks, say 10 or 15, or something reasonable like that).
This way, players would actually have to earn their salaries, rather than simply sign a fat contract and then sit back doing nothing.
Say you're a rookie plumber or a programmer or even a journalist and you're offered a salary that you don't like, so you decline the offer and go apply to work at one of the other zillion companies that need plumbers or programmers or journalists.
But they've all decided between themselves that rookie plumbers/programmers/journalists cannot be paid more than what you were offered. An amount smaller than you're willing to accept.
Happy?
Of course the assumption that the rookie player hasn't proven his value because he's not played a down of NFL football is all wrong.
Would be true if his value was merely his footballing ability. But it's not. NFL teams are run as businesses. The value of a high draft pick is the number of extra tickets he will sell & the bigger audiences he will attract to TV. Both can be estimated ahead of contract signing by the amount of buzz he's generated. I can't wait to see Crabtree in action, that translates into $$ for the Niners which makes him worth a big contract.
It's like advertising deals. Tiger Woods signed a zillion dollar contract with Nike before he'd sold a single pair of shoes. The zillion dollars had nothing to do with his golfing ability, rather his as yet unproven ability to sell shoes.
Many of the comments today are interesting reading when it comes to Crabtree and his possible "holdout." It seems some are pushing the need for some kind of cap on rookies coming into the NFL, and believe me, I'm not saying it is a good idea or it isn't.
A few thoughts though. To me the NFL, and football in general at any level seems to be the most physical and dangerous of all big time sports. I know basketball, soccer, tennis, lacrosse, hockey, and all the sports played have there physical stress and that includes golf and baseball. But football is a tremensously physical, contact sport that, to me, can end a promising or lengthy career in one second. Sometimes it leads to concussions (found to happen at a much greater rate than previously thought) or outright paralyzing of the body, and it seems that we see these things happening every year. I know a crash in car racing can lead to death or the same injuries mentioned above, but in comparison, not at the same rate as football, at least in my mind.
That being said, these young, physical, talented men have the right to seek what they believe is their needed compensation. If you look at the average years in playing time of an NFL player at any position, it isn't many years. These guys (and you can see many suffering in their later years from surgeries and injuries, including later life knee and hip replacements) put a lot on the line to be an NFL player let alone a well known star.
Yea! I know it's their choice to play the game. It's a dream of many of us who had dreams of being where these rookies and players are. But only few can be there. These rookies are there now. They've made it this far. If you or I had made it as far as they have, I wonder how many of us wouldn't seek a dollar value we think we deserve instead of a cap figure? Yea, a rookie hasn't taken a snap in a real NFL game yet. But don't think they and their agents aren't aware of the average life of a player in the NFL.
Basically, they have the right to do what they think is right for themselves when it comes to the commodity they think they can bring to a team. Isn't that capitalism? And so some think their divas? So what? Maybe if we had the talent of some of these guys, we'd think we were divas too. I sure saw a lot of divas in my profession before I retired. And I still see divas walking around today.
So give the young football players a break. I used to sit and watch Deion Sanders and T.O when they were with the 49ers. They were the biggest divas going. But when Deion made those interceptions and T.O made that catch (remember the Green Bay playoff game) I along with 65,000 49er fans screamed our lungs out and loved them and there play.
Divas and caps!? It's ALL part of the game! Maybe the game would be boring without all this going on? Maybe we should be glad we may have a diva? Anybody who wants to be a "diva" with the 49ers and there track record the last years might bring something the team needs for the future? Just my opinion.
It already exists, and it's called a union. They do it for collective bargaining purposes.
The problem with assuming that high draft picks will automatically generate more income is based on a faulty assumption, that the draft pick alone and not the rookie's actual performance is what puts bums in seats. Sure, the first few games, it might happen, but when the rookie is perceived as a bust, only the hardcore fans of said player will be going to games to see them play, while the rest of the fans are going to the games to see the players who are performing at a high level. Alex Smith would be an example of this.
How many 'rookie' plumbers / programmers / journalists are signed for what their 5-10yr vet counterparts are making? How many times have you heard of someone demanding to be hired at x% more than the 'rookie' that was hired one year prior?
NOTHING in the NFL rookie signings translates to the 'real world'.
Good point guy! Now add to that, that the employer who wants your services is the ONLY ONE who has the rights to you for the coming year. You sign at his offer or WAIT another year to apply for a job with another owner who has the ONLY RIGHTS to you this year!
Pretty hard for a person to wait a year for the job he's best suited for.
Some might say "get another kind of job then!" But how would any of us working stiffs who put in the best work and time we have like being told by our employer "get another job, the new guy will work for less than you!" And that employer is the only one you can apply to get a job from until next year? That's about it!
If they're willing to work for less and do an equal or better job than you, they obvious deserve the job more than you. You can't expect to be competitive in a market demanding more when others with equal or better skills are willing to do the same job for less.
Even if your competition's inferior, if they're inferiority is reasonable considering the amount they're requesting, ie, their skill-to-price ratio is better than the one you're demanding, then be you can't say they being hired over you is unreasonable.
When it comes to haggling over whether a guy gets 15 vs 16 million guaranteed money, I don't have much sympathy if it causes the guy to show up late for TC. To me, that's cheating the team and the employer who's paying him for a full year's work. I mean, gads, how many millions does it take to make you feel good? If you can't manage the rest of your life on 15 million, 20 million won't matter that much anyway because you're a damn fool to begin with. It's the agents creating this BS, all the way. A real scummy lot of toxic humanity.
I hate to disagree Skeebers but Wall Street is the perfect example of there is NO LIMIT to what people want and need when it comes to money. I mean you've got billionares who NEVER make enough money! They'll cause the collapse of the whole world to make that extra billion.
In our capitalist country a millionare isn't happy until he makes that next million ... and so on and so on.
I'm not sure were playing on the same checker board. But let's just say you have the black and I have the red checkers.
Your argument has too many holes in it. First of all Tiger Woods doesn't play the ultimate TEAM sport. In the real world, big business doesn't hire people without a track record to contracts larger than their existing stars just because of what is happening in the NFL now. The really good veterans, who are big producers, want to be paid as much as the rookies and so they should. Using your reasoning, Detroit should have a long waiting list for season tickets due to the number of high 1st round draft picks in recent years. IT'S ALL ABOUT THE SUCCESS OF THE TEAM THAT SELLS TICKETS! The powers that be in the NFL now have a tiger by the tail and better figure out how to let go without being eaten. You pay the guys who have actually proved themselves to be valuable to the team, not the ones with potential.
Crabtree is damaged goods. What else is he going to do? Brain Surgury? Other than catch a football what else can he do? He doesn't even have a degree. Somebody that tall and agile will make a great Sheetrock Hanger. Let's see how he feels about his agent after the 8th week of the season and there is no contract. Matter of fact the 49ers won't sign him until after the season. That is what I would be saying. He signs this or he can just sit out the year and we can try again say in the middle of February 2010, What do you say there Mr Agent?
Get as much money as you can Crabtree. I don't understand this negativity towards him wanting all he can get. The Niners had no problem raising tix prices during their 6 years crappy run of losing.
The NFL is a business, as cut-throat as there is. All this family stuff is fluff, as Montana, Lott, Rice and others found out . Crabtree has a Bargaining chip that he won't have ever again, being a highly rated high draft choice. This contract will set the price on his NFL future compoensation.
Grab all you can get Crabtree then produce on the field!
Terry, I don't see us as disagreeing. The unbridled lust for more and more money is a sad fact of life - until you get old and wonder "What's it all about, Alfie?" The Niners have not had any problem signing draft choices and making fair offers to them, and I highly doubt they are not making a fair offer to Crabtree. If there's a holdout (and this is all wild speculation right now), it will be the agent's fault, not Crabtree and not the Niners.
I don't think rookie salaries are out of whack per se. The problem concerns more with the franchise picks (just too expensive these days), perhaps broadening out to the teens during a weak or "egalitarian" draft class.
For example, last year's R1 signings http://tinyurl.com/nspe65 yielded a lot of worthwhile returns outside of the top 8 or so picks. The $6m committed to bottom-R1 picks equals to what 2nd-tier, or "2b" UFAs can make in a free market.
Here's also a rundown of our recent R1 picks, their draft slots, rookie cap charges, & whether the latter ranked on the annual team payrolls. SF didn't draft in mid-round much during this period to warrant analysis but, again, those bottom-R1 picks didn't represent significant monetary investments in the overall scheme of things. (Figures from USAToday database.)
K.Balmer 1/29 $1.113m 30th
P.Willis 1/11 $1.65m 20th
J.Staley 1/28 $1.02m 29th
V.Davis 1/6 $2.16m 10th
M.Lawson 1/22 $1.11m 24th
A.Smith 1/1 $2.7m 10th
R.Woods 1/31 $886k 14th
K.Harris 1/26 $950,127 18th
M.Rumph 1/27 $918,571 18th
A.Carter 1/7 $1.533m 8th
J.Peterson 1/16 $1.256m 8th
A.Plummer 1/24 $832,900 16th
.....i am just glad we have 23 of 26 the starting jobs resolved going into camp.
A lot of people don't understand that the U.S. economy is practically in a dumpster (everything is friggen expensive, and it isn't going to get any better for at least 15 years), so you can only expect 20 holdouts this season within first round picks.
People should also know that Deion Sanders assisted Crabtree in choosing Eugene Parker as his agent, due to what Eugene can get done inside of the front-office with his clients (and their best interests).
Above all though, for a player that's already suffered tons of scrutiny thus far, and a lot of mis-guided/negative media attention (the crying/the diva/the entourage that's actually his family), Crabtree really ISN'T setting a good example for himself going into his first year if he was to impose a major hold-out.
The fact is, courts have ruled the draft, salary cap, and the rookie salary slotting legal as long as a labor agreement is in place. Crabtree and his agent know perfectly well that there is a very narrow slot in which Crabtree's salary has to fit. The agent is trying to justify his job by moving Crabtree to the upper end of the slot. The idea that Crabtree should get more money because he "should have been" a top five pick is, of course ridiculous and both the agent and Crabtree know it.
I think Crabtree will be on board within a couple of days of the Bills signing Aaron Maybin.
100% agree w/ your 3rd paragraph. In fact, your whole 3rd paragraph could apply to any high draft pick.
I don't have an issue with individuals, by rather what the system has become. I hate it when a player defers contract issues to their agents and what not. Look, YOU'RE the player, you play when you want! If you really were about playing the game, you would play for minimum wage and go play. If you're good, you're efforts will be greatly rewarded. This whole "pay before proven" method just doesn't make any sense to me.
Almost all of you are knuckle heads with no idea what is really going on...
you guys are spitting words as if you have a clue...
FIRST OF ALL - YOU ALL WILL BE TRYING TO GET MORE MONEY IF YOU WERE IN SITUATION.
SECOND - SO WHAT HE HIS A DIVA?....IF YOU CARE SO MUCH ABOUT LABELLING SOMEONE A DIVA - YOU ARE A HATER
THIRD - "pay before proven" - IS THE DUMBEST THING ANYONE EVER THOUGHT OF. ALL OF YOU USE YOUR BRAIN FOR WORK, THIS KIDS USE THEIR BODIES FOR OUR FREAKING ENTERTAINMENT. LAST YEAR WE ALL HEARD ABOUT HOW HARD IT WAS FOR NFL RETIREES TO SURVIVE.
I MEAN CAN YOU IMAGINE A FORMER JOCK BEGGING FOR MONEY FROM THE NFL - MIKE DITKA AND HIS FRIENDS DID EXACTLY THAT.
...THE ROOKIE PAY IS BEING EXAGGERATED. THEY DESERVE EVERY PENNY OF IT EVEN WITHOUT A SNAP.
I knew you were going to come around to your dumb statements when the season starts...
"If you really were about playing the game, you would play for minimum wage and go play"
- If that isn't the dumbest and stupidest comment i ever read on the blog - I WOULD BE LIEING..
THE NFL IS NOT A GAME - IT IS A BUSINESS
Michael Vick is now available! Who has more rust between Crabtree and him? Maybe we can use signing him as leverage with Crabtree's agent. Just a thought...and I'm half-joking!
I hear ya! Especially your thought about getting older and how gives you a "new" perspective (or maybe older) about the WHOLE world in general. I sure see things with my "older" pair of glasses differently.
You're also right that we agree more than disagree.
*siiiiiigh*
I thought it would be obvious I was being facetious with the minimum wage line, but I guess not. My bad.
Again, I have no problem with them getting paid, great. I do have a problem with not getting a return on an investment once money has been dealt.
These "kids" if drafted into the NFL are considered superior athletes, the best of the best. You're severely undermining them and their ability if you think that they can't handle the physicality of a sport they've probably been playing (for free) their whole lives anyway.
We're about to witness the pot calling the kettle black...
"Almost all of you are knuckle heads with no idea what is really going on...
you guys are spitting words as if you have a clue..."
followed up closely by:
"LAST YEAR WE ALL HEARD ABOUT HOW HARD IT WAS FOR NFL RETIREES TO SURVIVE."
You have absolutely... 100%... no idea what you're talking about. You may want to do just a snick of research before calling others out.
There's something thats both comical and sad when you go on another blog and actually recognize the name of someone posting a comment. I saw your post on ProFootballTalk regarding Singletary. Like it or not, Sing will be forever linked to the pants dropping incident. Depending on how his coaching tenure goes with the 9ers he will either be remembered as the coach who knows how to motivate his team - or he will be known as the buffoon who yelled at his team with his pants around his ankles. You can scream from the rafters as much as you want but people will remember that incident for a long time.
LOL! Lump me in with the 'sad' then Houston. Yeah I definitely agree w/ everything you say. It just irritates my eyes every time I read a joke regarding that situation. I guess we're spoiled here in the Bay Area because we have competent, intelligent and informed reporters and writers. And the 49ers have (for the most part) the classiest fan base around, so you don't see (again, for the most part) a bunch of redundant comment buffoonery.
I only say 'sad' because I've never commented on there before, really wanted to refrain from doing so, but just couldn't help myself.
Contrary to your STRONG opinion, reducing the money rookies gets does not reduce the amount of money that true players get. If you prove yourself to be a pro, you will make your money. Less money to unproven rookies leaves more money for proven vets. And the ex players that Ditka is representing are not modern players, making several lifetimes of normal wages in 4 or 5 years. They were players who made so much that most of them had jobs in the off season while they were active to make ends meet. If a modern player goes broke, it's a result of mismanagement and poor decisions on his part.
So we've got about 12 hours till rookies get to camp and no word yet on crabtree or coffee? I kinda suspected crabtree but didn't think coffee wouldn't be signed on time
Coffee is in the pot and ready to pour-according to 49er.com he signed today!
Raider Troll hey ol' chum!?
Supposedly, Crabtree told Pat Kirwan on Sirius NFL Radio that it was important that he shows up on time because of Coach Singletary. He acknowledged that Singletary does not care about what his agent says and Crabtree told Singletary he will be there on time.
I guess we'll find out pretty quick if he's a man of his word ;-)
Sounds like we got a jealous, little Raiduh fan here, huh? Hey, I'd be pissed too if I was a Raiduh fan who watched the Crypt Keeper pass on Crabtree... Heyward-Bey who? LMAO.
"If you prove yourself to be a pro, you will make your money."
Concur... this is why there should be smaller, SHORTER rookie contracts. One and two year deals for low total payouts. Low guaranteed monies and, if they want, incentive-laden contracts.
I am really not too worried, one, Parag has a good record for gettting rooks in on time. Two, Crabs wants to be there, not a lot of posturing or negotiating in the media. Three, no one has reallt signed yet. The slotting system will make a lot of dominos fall into place once a couple people sign, I wonder if Crabs will show up tomorrow?
Here's the status of the other rooks
http://www.nfl.com/draft/story?id=09000d5d810d9ec2&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true
"I do have a problem with not getting a return on an investment once money has been dealt." -
...Dude that is LIFE....it happens everyday, people get hired, get paid and the employer finds out the employee can't do the job, then fires the employee,..
....a ROI is not a right it is something you earn..
..and smart business people know that.
...the original loof himself...What is your point?
You copied my quotes and didn't give any counter argument on how I didn't have a clue about the subject..
wasn't the a fuzz about retirees wanting help from the nfl?
Matt,
Where's the details on Coffee's contract. You're slacking :)
"Less money to unproven rookies leaves more money for proven vets."
...WHAT IS WROING WITH YOUR BRAIN?
Where do u get this kind of thoughts?
So you believe an owner will give proven vets more $$ because he has extra cash?
Name one proven VET in the NFL that is underpaid?
just one.....
The problem with this system is it needs to be totally re-done in the new CBA but that's for another time. Jon's right there's no need to panic, the problem is 90% of the 1st rounders have not signed yet specifically pick 5-8 & 10-12 so how does Crabtree & the 49ers come to a fair number without those other picks being signed? HELLO!
MM - Any additional color to this story about Willis diong MMA fighting? Per the report, 238 pounds sounds a little light for Patrick to me:
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/07/28/patrick-willis-takes-up-mma/
P.S. I would pay to see him in the ring!!!
crabtree - "it's not a holdout unless the player has signed his contract. Using the word in relation to unsigned rookies suggests these players are just being greedy, without accounting for the team's role in the stalemate."
"wasn't the a fuzz about retirees wanting help from the nfl?"
oldgiantfan already alluded to it... yes, but that was the previous generations of players. Those who didn't make much money and now have no help from the league, including health care for their battered bodies. The NFLPA has plenty of measures in place for the current players, which is why they're now trying to do more to help those who built the league before them.
Again:
"Almost all of you are knuckle heads with no idea what is really going on...
you guys are spitting words as if you have a clue..."
"Damn, kettle... you are one BLACK mofo!"
Matt,
Not to be an conspiracy theorist or anything BUT: Do you really buy someone in Denver specifically pointing out that Crabs is holding up everything. Obviously people would tend to think that Nolan has his hand in this but this makes no sense to me. Why would a D coord talk about another teams rookie WR not signing- becuase its holidng up their RB signing? I don't buy it.
What are your thoughts on this; Paraage throws a Denver reporter a bone and says to keep it ananomous. This way the reporter gets a story, everyones first reactions is to point out Nolan, the 9ers put pressure on Crabtree and do not have to take a hit in terms of the relationship side. I would think that story does put some presssure on Crabs to sign and it makes him look like a bad guy- something that was said of him during the draft.
"people get hired, get paid and the employer finds out the employee can't do the job, then fires the employee,.."
Actually, that's not exactly how it works at my job. I started out at the minimum salary, and then got pay raises based on my performance. I didn’t start at the maximum salary and have to prove my worth after the fact. Not sure how they do things where you work nowadays, but did you get a fat check before they put you on french fries 1niner?
..dude...it happens everyday...
...lol..its funny how you use your situation to justify everyone's else's ..
maybe if you finished college - you would have an opportunity not to start at a minimun salary....
...my point is = it is part of business, and the cost of hiring someone who is not equipped to do a job is something every employer deals with ...that is why almost every business outsources their recruitment process to recruitment agencies...
....why else do you think NFL teams spend money on scouting?
..it is not the rookie's fault he his being paid $$$, blame the organization for failing to do their homework..
Did you guys even know NFL owners do not provide the players union detail records of their revenue...
Patrick Willis. Anquan Boldin. Josh Cribbs. Leon Washington. Brandon Marshall. Thomas Jones. I can keep going.
The fact is that rookies at the top of the draft are overpaid and some vets, particularly young vets, are underpaid (especially if they fell out of the first round). Owners WILL give more money to proven vets if a rookie wage scale is implemented because the owners are required to pay a certain portion of their revenues to the players, per the CBA.
...lol...are u ok?
You are saying those guys are underpaid....Almost all the guys yu mentioned are still playing under their rookie contracts...
So -:)..let me get this straight...rookies are overpaid when they sign their first contract but while they are playing under the same contract they are underpaid...:)
did you even know Willis is getting more than his contract says because of the incentives attached to his original contract.....
...A. Boldin's case is no different, just cuz the cards won't pay him $10 mil compared to the $8 mil they offered means he his underpaid?......and you know it is a fact that there are teams out there that will pay him $10 mil.....
A wise man once told me not to argue w/ fools, because from a distance you can't tell who's who.
Good day sir.
Since Thomas Jones didn't pass your test, how about Wes Welker: $1.65 million 2009 base / $5.5 million guaranteed. 223 receptions over the last two years, each 1000+ yard seasons, in addition to returning 49 punts at 10 yards per return. Not his rookie contract. Underpaid.
Ok, so what I wrote was "rookies at the TOP OF THE DRAFT are overpaid." Not all rookies. I believe that rookie contracts should be shorter in length, low in base salary, and thick with incentives for every player. I do think players that go first overall should be able grab more than Mr. Irrelevant, but the incentives ought to be equal. If you prove yourself, no matter your draft status, you ought to get paid.
Lastly, you just proved my argument that Boldin is worth $8-$10 million, but isn't getting paid that. He is severely underpaid at $2.75 million this year and $3 million in the next.
dude...when you sign a contract...you just can't come back a yr later and demand a new contract...there are other factors involved
I believe Wes Welker made more than you think he did...in addition to their salaries the NFL has a performance based system to avoid underpaying players who performed better than Teams expected them to play...
the issue is not are players underpaid cuz as i stated the NFL does address the issue
the issue is - are players (especially rookies) over paid....I DISAGREE..
Detroit – Matthew Stafford, QB, Georgia 6 years $72M; $41.7M G
41M in 6yrs is not overpaid especially when you not only expect the kid to play QB but generate revenue to your team and city and also be the face of your organization WORLDWIDE....
compared that to those Wall street CEO's that received $100M bonues ..
Average GM in the 2nd round is $2million (37. Denver – Alphonso Smith, CB, Wake Forest 4 years $4.08M; $2.15M SB)......2 million dollars is nothing
3rd round GM - (65. NY Jets – Shonn Greene, RB, Iowa 4 years $2.655M; $905,000 SB).....905, 000 is not too much for a 3rd round pick...
you guys need to look at the numbers before forming opinions...
$2 million is chump change this days...you guys need to upgrade your pocketbooks
rookies contracts are thick with incentives for every player....THAT IS A FACT
That's Wes Welker's salary. 5 Year, $18.1m total base, $1.65 2009 base, $5.5m total sb. He is an underpaid, proven vet. He is the exception to your rule.
Also, don't tell me "I believe Welker made more than you think he did" when you didn't "look at the numbers before forming opinions." It's hypocritical.
Below is Wes salary in DETAILS....
His wes walker a number 1 receiver = NO
His wes walker a number 2 receiver = NO
His wes walker a number 3 WR who plays the slot position = YES
He his not underpaid.
Signing bonus: $5.5 million in 2007.
Option bonus: $3.5 million payable in 2008, applied for cap reasons in equal $875,000 increments in 2008, 2009, 2010 and 2011.
Salaries: $550,000 in '07, $1,400,000 in '08, $1.65 million in '09, $1.9 million in '10 and $2.15 million in '11.
Workout bonuses: $56,720 in 2007, 106,720 annually starting in 2008 if he participates in the Patriots' offseason workout program in Foxboro.
Roster bonuses: $250,000 annually starting in 2008
http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/articles/2007/10/17/patriots_pounced_fast_to_grab_welker/
Welker to the Patriots for second- and seventh-round draft choices. In New England, Welker signed a five-year contract that included a $5.5 million signing bonus and $3.5 million option bonus. His presence as a slot receiver, playing alongside Randy Moss and Stallworth.....
Not only did the pats pay him his asking price, he still added a cost of 2 draft picks......
Wes walker Cap numbers: In succession yearly, $1.7 million, $3.7 million, $4 million, $4.2 million, $4.5 million.
For a slot WR that is not underpaid...
As we have now both identified, his base salary for 2009 is indeed $1.65 million.
As for Welker as a "slot" receiver, his 2008 numbers are better than Randy Moss in both receptions and yards. He caught 42 more passes than Moss. 42 more than their "Number 1." He was second in the NFL in receptions in 2008 and tied for first in 2007. I don't care what label you put on a player (such as 1, 2, or slot), but that kind of production warrants a hell of a lot more money than $1.65m or even $4m.
Wes Welker is ridiculously underpaid.
"maybe if you finished college - you would have an opportunity not to start at a minimun salary...."
Perhaps if you had finished college, you'd know not to talk out of your @ss.
Here's an idea... before you spout off about things you don't know anything about... try google! I'll even get you started! We're going to use Salary.com for this one. Pick a profession (career, not fry cook). Look at the salaries based on experience. You'll notice a trend. Those who are new graduates make much less than proven 'vets'! It's crazy what you can learn when you pull your head out.
.....Wes knows without R.Moss he wont be that successful - that was why he didn't complain about wanting more money
This isn't about who's production affects who's, whether they complain about their salary, or speculating as to a player's state of mind.
You asked us to identify a proven veteran, not on his rookie contract, who is underpaid.
Wes Welker. Done.